Realpolitik behind Lina Joy decision May 31, 2007
Posted by elizabethwong in Democracy, Human Rights, Islam in Southeast Asia, Malaysia, Note2Self, Politics, Southeast Asia.trackback
realpolitik
Pronunciation: rA-'äl-"pO-li-"tEk
Function: noun
Usage: often capitalized
Etymology: German, from real actual + Politik politics
: politics based on practical and material factors rather than on theoretical or ethical objectives (Merriam-Webster)
To kill two birds with one stone is to have the majority view advocate for jurisdiction be placed in the realm the Syariah court, and the dissenting view aim at satisfying the detractors.
This is, after all, an election year.
*********************
It was at the fringes of the KeADILan Congress that I was able to discuss the issue of apostasy with a degree of frankness with an old friend. It went a little like this:-
“Seriously, is it really a problem?” I’d asked.
“No, but would it be better for Muslims to resolve this issue amongst ourselves?”
“You mean there is a way out?”
“Yes. But they have to go through counselling. After that, if they still want to leave, we cannot stop them.”
“A bit like divorce cases?”
“Yes.”
“But these people put them in detention centres!”
“They aren’t all that bad.”
“I’ve not seen the insides of them. Wouldn’t it be better if one isn’t held inside these centres and are free to enter and leave, or have scheduled counselling session?”
“It’s something to think over. But why aren’t the rights groups interested in a dialogue or a discussion.”
“That’s … not …. well….”, my voice faltered when I recalled the number of times Article 11 rejected overtures for dialogue.
An awkward and glum cloud hovered over us.
*********************
There were no winners on Wednesday morning, unless we include the Islamophobes who gained an additional dart or two.
It’s neither an earth-shattering decision nor does it change the social landscape here. The verdict reaffirms and maintains the status quo.
So why does it taste more bitter?
It means those attempting to have a meaningful partnership with Muslims, while holding on to their respective faiths, will continue to do so surreptitiously. Those who are thinking of embarking on a relationship will have second thoughts.
Who appointed judges and governments to be rulers of our hearts and souls?
Two years ago, while I still held a column in Malaysiakini, I’d written the following:-
Freedom of conscience and belief cannot only be limited to followers of a particular faith; what is freedom for one, should be in equal measure, freedom for the other.
One may argue this is all legal-speak but history has provided us a valuable pointer – that laws and punishment cannot move matters of the heart and soul.
In the end, those who struggle to practice their belief in quiet dignity …. are the ones who truly embody the infinite magnitude of the human spirit. (Archived here)
The apex court may have rejected Lina’s appeal, but it is Lina who is able to walk with her head held high, not those who sit on the thrones in the Palace of Justice.
elizabeth wong 
I just put put a message on Lina Joy…and here comes your new post on the subject..great!!
Can anyone tell me where on earth…a person can not freely choose the religion of his/her choice?
I think even judges with no degrees or experiences in the jungle law…will give better judgments that those two obvious political or no guts lawyers..that dare not go against an unjust law made by unjust man…since Merdeka time.
I can understand Army and police forces will obey the government of the day…yet can play politics…but from so call learned men…higher than all of us..to deprive a citizen to choose the religion she wants…quoting this or that bullshit…actually passing the responsibility to others..is sickening.
Is this not what we seem to see happening quite often by UMNO ministers…talking so much cock and bull?
the bottom line is that…these two judges are afraid many muslims will give up being the islamic religion….making it easy for people to do so. WHY ARE THEY CONTROLLING MALAYS WITH A RELIGION AFTER 50 YEARS BEATS ME!! It is such a good and best religion in the world…yet here we make it a compulsory to malays…making other races dare not marry malay girls for generations.
HAD THEY FREE IT FROM DAY ONE…YOU WILL NOW SEE CHILDREN OF MIXED BLOOD THAT WE CAN TRULY SAY…PRODUCTS OF OUR independence….why are they afraid?
“But these people put them in detention centres!”
“They aren’t all that bad.”
“I’ve not seen the insides of them. Wouldn’t it be better if one isn’t held inside these centres and are free to enter and leave, or have scheduled counselling session?”
—————–
agree with you that it would be better if one isn’t held inside these centres and are free to enter and leave, or have scheduled counselling sessions?”
i listen to radio hong kong daily and there was a news flash earlier about Lina Joy — their take was a Christian was made to remain Muslim.
the deejay then joked: “In times like these, one should ask what would mohamed (the) prophet do?”
he was parodying the famous christian tagline, What Would Jesus Do (WWJD)?, used by christians to make decisions esp in difficult situations.
however, i do feel that Lina Joy should have followed the law, as amended by Mahathir, and seek to be released from Islam in the Syariah courts. after getting the approval, she can then change her religious status on her MyKAD.
but i guess the issue here is about whether the civil or syariah courts are more powerful. And whether the constitution really is the supreme law of the land.
in the ruling, in a twisted truth, bcos of the amendment, it is just and Lina should have seeked to renounce her religion via the Syariah courts first.
however, at any time, should Malaysians feel that subjecting muslims to Syariah courts in matters pertaining to Islam is an abuse of individual freedoms, then they should elect leaders who would make the necessary constitutional amendments.
so, why din Lina Joy follow the law and go through the Syariah courts? Or did I miss something?
EW: Depends whether her state’s Syariah court provides a remedy for her situation.
“What Would Jesus Do (WWJD)?,
Jesus never used the word Christian to describe his followers. He preached a universal religion of love, forgiveness, uprighteousness, concern for the poor and the marginalized.
Mere adherence to a religion does not guarantee salvation. It is how one leads his life that matters. God is a God all human beings. If He is only God of only one section of humanity, then he is not God. He would be a President.
If a religion says only that one could gain salvation, he is devaluing God.
Tell me, how many of these goons who were screaming away outside the court know his religion?
I have met friends who wanted Salman Rusdie killed but they had never read the Satanic Verses. Neither were they exemplary adherents of their faith.
It was mere herd mentality at work.
I think she deserves the death penalty people need to understand that Islam is not just a religion, but its an institution. Any act of treason therefore against the institution must be dealt with acordingly. Similarly, Malaysian law has strict rules regarding their own people spying for the singaporean government…
Why can’t we look at Islam as a sovereign entity that do not have the constraints of borders or a permanent constituency.
So why do we treat treason on a state (Man made boundry) with more conviction compared to treason on a borderless institution with universal rules and regulations? Its either people are being too stupid to see beyond the western propaganda, or people are just getting their priorities screwed…
” I recalled the number of times Article 11 rejected overtures for dialogue”.
Well, Eli, can you tell us how many times Article 11 rejected overtures to dialogue?
Is this the new ’spin-doctoring’ u’ve picked up in the PKR classroom?
Go on, tell us how many times. In fact, why don’t you also detail then when and where
EW: What spin-doctoring? I recall three times:- JIM June 2006, PKR late 2006 and PAS this year. There are people who from both sides who don’t want to see the situation to spin out of control. Get third party mediation if need be.
I still can’t get over the fact that we call it the PALACE of Justice. How grandiose and egotistical can you get?
Dear Freelunch,
Are you talking about Lina Joy who wants the freedom to live a Malaysian life with the religion and man of her choice? Or Lina Joy as a Christian? A born again Christian only believes in one God and Jesus. Even the book of Revelation warns against the marking (666) during the end day. The need to proclaim the faith openly in public is almost a commandment. This would explain her statement ‘Only God knows what is in my heart and I hope everyone will respect my conviction’. The other statement ‘I am hoping that my case would have made a difference to the development of constitutional issues in the plight of many others’ is probably what everyone is debating on. The latter is a well crafted statement, perhaps genuine, for the many who may be practicing their religious preference in silence. Malaysians tend to forget that this country is only turning 50 soon. History has taught us that changes in the laws governing religious rights and human rights, whether in the Constitutional court or the Syariah court, normally takes centuries and even civil wars. We must be sure which of the two issues we are talking about before making any comment or judgement. Just to be fair. v9
[…] Elizabeth Wong’s post (and I wanna make clear I love her blog) on the Lina Joy case : To kill two birds with one stone is to have the majority view advocate for jurisdiction be placed […]
Or the kind of remedy afforded to her. Dato’ Malunjam’s reply makes that point:
On whether the syariah courts have should have jurisdiction over conversions out of Islam, the basis of Soon Singh v. Perkim formed the 3rd question under consideration. Dato’ Malunjam’s discussion of this question from para 75 through to 85 is interesting.
hat-tip to politikus’ commenter for the judgements here.
Btw, I don’t think Dato’ Malunjam’s dissenting view (described as “strong” by some) helps any; people aren’t happy with the decision per se, I’m willing to bet. A dissenting view does nothing to assuage the bitterness of the loss.
And, if what you’ve said about Article 11 rejecting overtures for dialogue is true – something I wondered after reading an NST report – then I’m horribly, horribly, horribly disappointed. Angry and disappointed.
I’m now ashamed of being Malaysian
Having limited formal education, I fail to fully comprehend the legal complexity of the case. To me, it all boils down to the importance of having or not having the word Islam on the mykad.
I wonder if god will check mykad on judgement day?
If it is in the affirmative, I also wonder what will happen to the billions of human beings, past, present and future, who do not have mykads; will they be automatically condemned to hell?
Shawn Tan…Instead of being ashamed….why not try to fight the injustice by voicing out? The bigger and louder the voices are…they will be heard. previously….no internet….so how to be heard..when even if you write to the papers…they will not published your letters.
So it’s good we all speak our minds out without fear.
And this is not about Jesus or Prophet Mohammad. It is about freedom of religion of our choice….especially by a malay.
Why the control…beats me.
Until today…I cannot understand it.
Even in Indonesia..ten times bigger than Malaysia and the largest Muslim country on Earth….DO NOT force everyone to be a Muslim…even though it is truly a MUSLIM country.
Father can be Buddhist..marry a Muslim girl…no problem…choose your faiths a you like…for love conquers all…is their noble attitudes in life.
So many JAVANESE.. …the oldest race in Indonesia are not MUSLIMS.
So what makes Malaysia so damn smart to follow middle east style?
Are we saying the Malays are arabs descendants in Malaysia?
Dear Freedom Fighters,
Is there anywhere in the world where u can find absolute freedom? Sometimes u need to sacrifice a little for the greater good.
IMHO, it’s just a case of changing the word ‘Islam’ to ‘Kristian’ in her IC, not to the extent of denying citizens the right to practice their faiths. Nevertheless, this issue has been blown way out of proportion, much to my disdain.
Frankly, this is a very sensitive issue in our country. Where else in the world would u find a country such culturally diverse as ours living in peace (again, there’s no such thing as absolute peace, but we dont really live in fear like the Palestinians or Christians in Ambon do we?).
We need a bit of control to prevent incidents such as the May 13 riots from happening again. Like it or not, we live in a Muslim majority country, where most are quite conservative in various levels. This issue could spiral out of control if it’s not well contained, especially the fact that growing Islamophobia around the world is fuelling the aspirations of the radicals, gaining more and more support along the way from oppressed Muslims.
Liberalisation of Iraq & Afghanistan. The fall of the Soviet regime. Collapse of the Suharto authocratic rule. May 13. We must learn from experience, so we have to tread carefully.
On a more personal note, the increase of publicised religious conflicts in our country lately are sending shivers down my spine.
It is better we shivers now than let our children do the dirty work.
We are not asking for troubles.
What I have written may sound like terrible sensitive issue..but I am banging on the hope that it is up to the government to stop the ultras…with typical mindsets to calm down and be open minded. I am praying the government will change laws to meet true Vision 2020.
I am sick of living in a hypocirtical country…so are the majorities…..I assure you.
chonz….Please don’t start with the logic..freedom is no given everywhere in the world. Every Tom Dick and Harry knows that.
But we are behaving more and more like the Middle East country than a real Cosmopolitan one. Above all..we are in Asia…not Africa.
The subject most dear to us are being Malaysians with freedom of choosing a religion as one wishes.
These allows all Malaysians to use their brains and developed a thinking mind. Is that not important to Vision 2020?
Mind goodness..you think we can build Johore Baru to compete against S’pore intelligent minds and working attitudes? What have S’pore got? NOTHING…but I bet you…it will be another failed project in JB…..if we do not face the real problem sincerely.
Re: #4. Hafiedz:
“I think she deserves the death penalty people need to understand that Islam is not just a religion, but its an institution. Any act of treason therefore against the institution must be dealt with acordingly. Similarly, Malaysian law has strict rules regarding their own people spying for the singaporean government…
Why can’t we look at Islam as a sovereign entity that do not have the constraints of borders or a permanent constituency.
So why do we treat treason on a state (Man made boundry) with more conviction compared to treason on a borderless institution with universal rules and regulations? Its either people are being too stupid to see beyond the western propaganda, or people are just getting their priorities screwed…”
Religion is ultimately an issue of personal conscience, whereas the state is a political and legal framework. Comparing one to the other doesn’t really make sense. Simply calling it an ‘institution’ is a horrible way to argue: I could just as well call my college an ‘institution’ and by your logic transferring schools would be treason.
Even if one accepts your parallel definitions of states and religions, this still makes no sense. You confuse treason with changing memberships: the way you describe it, every person who migrates to a different country is guilty of treason, which is a ludicrous view to say the least. By your logic, a change of citizenship would be a crime deserving death.
Accusing ‘western propaganda’ of cooking this up doesn’t really change the facts of the case either. If people can have their own faith threatened by the mere fact that others disagree with their faith and refuse to practice it, then I think it is those people who need their priorities examined instead.
Democracy in Malaysia? I doubt it. After 50 years of independence. 50 years man. Rahman Razak & Hussein had already passed away. What a waste they couldnt see whats happening right here in Malaysia.
Freedom to believe? Needless to say. stupid Jais and what so called jabatan agama destructed wonderful families. They kidnapped people’s kids and wife. And they call themselve the law. SHIT i suppose.
anyway, one word to Lina, whether or not you IC is being changed, the faith in your heart is alot more purer and dignified than those who has no work to do other than peeping khalwat couples.
This government is sick. But not Malaysia. We can still change it, in condition we change the sucking government.
[…] Realpolitik behind Lina Joy decision realpolitik Pronunciation: rA-’äl-”pO-li-”tEk Function: noun Usage: often capitalizedelizabeth wong […]
Hey Shaw, if you are shame to be Malaysian, go to others free country which you like or go back to China!
Hi Freelunch2020,
Good to see you back in Blogospere.
You did miss something on why Lina Joy chose not to apply to the Syariah courts in the first place.
Several states in Malaysia, Melaka, Johor, Perak, Kedah, Terengganu have made it a criminal offense under Syariah law to even apply to leave Islam. “Don’t even ask, or we’ll throw you in jail.”
A few other states actually have a functioning process for a Muslim to apply to leave the religion. But I don’t think any Muslim Malay has ever successfully gone through the process while alive.
hey all,
i don’t wish to go into the complexities of religion and their respective doctrines.
i still feel Lina Joy did not follow procedures. after the amendments to article 121 (1) (A), as a muslim, her first course of remedy for a Islamic issue is via the Sharia courts.
i understand she invoked article 11 regarding freedom of religion but then in my humble non-lawyer view, she should have challenged whether the 121 amendment was constitutional.
only when the courts rule it as unconstitutional, then would she have a remedy via article 11.
Libra, i am not here to debate the technicalities of christians yadda yadda..my point is it is up to the sharia courts and we just have to see how just islamic law really is.
V9, i still feel she din follow procedures. if she went to the Sharia courts and they rejected her then she would have a stronger case.
my main argument is not about religion but about constitutional freedoms, rule of law and procedures.
cheers.
Democracy what stupid u all..Democracy for politic not religion.I just have one question to u all.If someone betray our country.The punishment that wait is death penalty. But if someone betray the god.What the punishment that we need to give to this person.???If u say no death penalty that mean country is more high or big than a god.That mean status your god more lower than the country.Think about that friend.
KS Tan: China is not as bad as you think.
but truth of the matter is, all of us are Malaysians from Malaysia, there’s no “China” to “go back” to for most of us.
sometimes we feel shameful because we know we need to do something to improve/change our current status but we can’t.
go visit China some time. it’s a pretty nice place to be — as a tourist — if you’ve been a tourist in Malaysia, you’ll probably agree with me.
PM said Lina joy case do not hurt Christians as Muslims are closet to them. I FULLY AGREE.
Maybe afraid Chinese marry too many malays girls and so become pork eaters?
Ah but malays marry chinese girl..okay lah…religion is still intack.
So chinese buddhists most dangerous threat to muslims?
Go figure it out yourself
Hi,
i hope that you guys learn more deeply about islam.. rather speaking blindly with emotions, by god’s will.. then you will understand why a muslim cannot convert to any other religion freely, you will understand why islam is an institution and not just some other religion. it is a way of life. it is not just pray, fast, hari raya, and go to haj only. it is more than meets the eye. if you’re the one who is searching for truth, learn islam. those who have done so knows.
if you say freedom. what does that mean? to live without rules?? or to follow every western ideologies? if you follow those ideologies, this still show u are still not free. We are god’s servant, so there’s no such thing as freedom of life. god our creator and must obey Him through the messages brought by His prophets.
On lina joy, she is disturbing the peace. if she dosent want to be a muslim, so be it. but don’t drag others. and that is what is is trying to do. she is now a kafir or non muslim even though her mykad is islam. thats a fact she could be like nyonya tahir. whre blasphemy has happen. but with lina joy’s actions, she has disturbed a human rights for a muslim, by declaring she is an apostate and wants others to be an apostates as well and also have the power to change their mykad, well.. this is an act of war and must be stopped. muslims have the right to defend their faith.
// Hafiedz – May 31, 2007
Similarly, Malaysian law has strict rules regarding their own people spying for the singaporean government… //
Hafiedz – I suppose it is OK for Malaysians to spy for the Indo or Thai governments?
“// Hafiedz – May 31, 2007
Similarly, Malaysian law has strict rules regarding their own people spying for the singaporean government… //
Hafiedz – I suppose it is OK for Malaysians to spy for the Indo or Thai governments?”
I think what he means is that we cannot do treason.. singapore is just one of the example.. aiseh.. same also for any country la.. ayyoo.. lambat tangkap..
To Shawn Tan… If you ashamed of being Malaysia… please migrate to the others contry la….. Why you are barking here…? Because of this ‘Lina’ cannot get her ‘Joy’ you want to ‘blah’ to others places …. please go ahead……
Hafizul, how long will you people keep saying that we don’t understand your “way of life”. We do, more than you assume, and like all thing on earth, it’s also subjected to others’ judgement.
It’s much more than a matter of, “a way of life”, it’s about whether it meets the standard of the known Golden Rule of Humanity. FL touches on the technicalities of Lina’s action; let’s consider the morality of the Creed by which she is bound. Has a religion that right to forbade apostasy and at the same time seek to stand among all others which don’t in a modern world?
sooooooo why don’t judge agree her Mycard word be changed from Islam to christian…as she requested…hafizul?
I also hope you learn more than just Islam religion …than start talking about religions.
okay then what do you understand about islam then? no u dont.. if u do, u will stop complaining and whining…
apostasy is treason, because you disturb other muslims and will bring harm. the rules are made clear by god not muslims. muslims must defend faith. please explain the golden rule of humanity.. who sets it? if it is humans, well it is like creating ur own religion.. which is false..
hi hafizul…What do you know about God?
Lets debate on religion…you one track minded hypocrite.
All these statements about how the freedom of others to reject your faith compromises your faith seem more than a little extremist, really. If a set of beliefs require coercion of the individual to make that choice, then something is wrong there.
Claiming that part of the ‘human rights’ of -any- religious believer includes the right to prevent other individuals from disagreeing with their own religious beliefs is outright nonsense: if you want to use that sort of principle, then it applies equally to all religions. Unless you want to say that every person in history who has converted to one religion from another has committed massive human-rights injustice on every single member of his or her previous religion, this is just an arbitrary and quite nonsensical use of the idea of ‘human rights’. Especially since the internationally accepted idea of human rights includes freedom of conscience.
to monsterball.. u see, we are a secular country.. becoz of that she still live.. a true muslim country will give her death penalty for treason. u dont need to scream on changing the mykad
we really dont want others to follow her foot steps.. so, no change in mykad for muslims.. so u want to be an apostate? fine.. do it quietly.. and find your self in hell in the afterlife..
im always learning.. that is my life.. you need more knowledge on islam before u condemn it.. im not the one condemning any other religion..
an apostate in the heart but muslim outside is called a munafiq.. just for ur info..
God’s will this ….God’s will that. Hi Hafizul…so God can talk?
To talk…God got a tongue?
So God says ”walla… born…earth…moon ..stars…adam… .eve…” etc etc etc…talk for six days..no?
So talk talk talk must have tongue…no?
So tongue need water to lubricate to talk some more..yes?
So drink water…God needs to urinate…no?
So God must also eat food…since like human being …urinating…no?
So God…must also shit..no?
Tell me…have you lately spoken to God and he answered your prayers?
So many holy holy people said they speak to God everyday…do you believe that?
Now you reply to this post…or else don’t talk God’s stuffs…you know next to nothing!!
@freelunch2020: well, that’s technically right: she didn’t follow procedures, she should have appealed to the Syariah courts first. But practically speaking, as v9 has pointed out, if Lina Joy followed procedures, she would gain nothing, most probably, but incarceration, fine, jail sentence etc.
Of course, it’s fallacious to suggest that the Syariah courts will definitely act as described above, but the threat of facing incarceration, fine, jail sentence etc. is a weighty enough consideration to give anyone pause. I don’t see why Lina Joy should submit to the syariah courts if she believes she will be, so-called, incriminating herself in the ambit of Islamic law.
Your point that she should have challenged 121(A) is well-taken – it’s certainly the more fundamental question, I think (again, I’m no lawyer, so..), but also the more controversial question, don’t you think? Lina Joy only wants to leave Islam, not question the whole basis of Islamic law LOL.. 😀
We could argue over whether predefined rules and procedures should be followed if a person believes they are unjust, unconstitutional etc., though I won’t pretend to have the capacity to discuss those issues, but I think such a discussion would be tangential to the current problem.
You talk as if Islam is the only way for all mankind. While I agree Islam is the greatest religion on Earth today..it is guys like you will destroy this wonderful religion….talking one track minded…knowing next to nothing how your religion came into being.
Your remark that Lena Joy must be put to death…makes me sick of your Taliban mentality.
I am waiting your reply. Don’t try to belittle others..loving other faiths….including so call infidels…..word created by who else…your brother..the christian holy people.
BIIIIG Problem
The whole thing is not not a simple Lina Joy wanting to be a christian and marry her lover. It is now becoming a “crusade” for so many special interest groups wanting to change the law of the land. The game is no longer lina joy’s.
I want to go to NRD tomorrow and change my race to “mat salleh” because suddenly my eyes turned blue and I dyed my hair blond.
So using the reason..we live in a secular country give you the right to judge Lena Joy hafizul?
So can’t we voiced out like cultured people for or against whether that so call secular country is good for all of us Or just one group of small community…loving TALIBAN style of life.
Above all..you read only the Koran and start judging others based on one book?
I am not condemning Islam…I am condemning you..as you condemn Lina Joy to death…don’t twist and turn…not good for your soul.
Get real….you want to teach me knowledge of Islam…when my teacher is non other than Ahmed Deedat…yet some Muslims in Malaysia do not respect one of your greatest Muslim teacher….why?
I read the Koran…do you read the Bible or any buddhist books?
If not….how dare you judge Lina Joy? Now so nice to me…is it because I am more educated and you can bully Lina Joy? Is that what Islam teaches you?
Where is hell and where is heaven hafizul?
The more I read your holy holy stuffs makes me sick of you thinking you are more holier than others…by being a zombie…robot…no need to think…brain no need to use…just shut it up and just follow ..God’s will this and God’s will that.
You tell me where is heaven and where is hell.
I think you are afraid of HELL….as you have sinned so much…so now try to please God to favor you a place in heaven?
What have I not seen such hypocrites in Malaysia.
You pray five times a day for years…what did God tell you everyday….to condemn Lina Joy to hell on behalf of Him?
Hi everyone. Be a dear and refrain from name-calling? ta.
Hafizul, you are indeed ignorant as regard to the Golden Rule. Here’s what it is about : http://tinyurl.com/phs74
Now everyone(else) knows what true believers lack! Even if no one has ever come across this completely clear and lengthy elucidation, they would have sensed that this is true by their own observations with a clear mind.
Just because you believe anything, is not the same as proving it is the truth and this is the essential deficiency and presumptuousness of just ‘faith’ – at the expense of human reason and compassion.
Islam is the only stupid religion for morons who believe in a very stupid dog…I mean god. Muslims had never and will never progress but instead retard. Neither did they or will they ever contribute constructively to mankind, be it through inventions or being charitable. The only best thing they know is greed through corruption, sex with 4 wives, death to apostasy and violence with what they term others as infidels.
What a bunch of idiots we do have here on earth among us.
Dear hafizul islami,
‘a true muslim country will give her death penalty for treason’…please list some examples. I think many would be interested to know.
Liz, the Realpolitik is therefore about Fascism repackaged differently and in a manner which forbade questioning.
EW: your blog infected quick call in the bug busters….hahaha
part1:
Chief Justice put it “One cannot embrace and renounce Islam according to one’s whims and fancies”
if he speaks for Islam he should stand down in a secular court and be Chief Justice in a Syariah court. if he is a Chief Justice of the secular court he MUST speak for the rights of humans and constitution. it is a conflict of interest to have a wolf in a chicken den making decisions on behalf of chickens. no one should accept this decision as its done in a secular court with a syariah verdict. its much like asking muslims to accept a syariah court with 2 non-malay muslim converts vs 1 malay-muslim stating its NOT OK to marry 4 wives as interprated by them and all should abibe by that rule! can malay-muslims accept something like this in return? won’t some ppl critises the 2 non-malay muslim converts saying they are NOT MUSLIM?
—————————————————
part2:
Chief Justice put it “One cannot embrace and renounce Islam according to one’s whims and fancies”
the other argument is:-
and if the CJ insists its on the constitution that a MALAY MUST BE MUSLIM therefore CANNOT be any other… then the loophole would be any NON-MALAY MUSLIM should be allowed to change their ISLAM tag in their IC without anymore debate cause the highest court already said so. Means a Indian/Pakistan/Chinese/Arab…etc. Muslim can convert to any other religion and NRD has to oblige PERIOD! Only “Melayu” Race cannot, any other races can.
Good one, Whattahack.
He said : “One cannot embrace and renounce Islam according to one’s whims and fancies”
Which is rubbish because Lina has been a Christian(more importantly at heart) for some 17 years.
Perhaps one cannot be a judge in a secular court and conclude with a correspondingly bad remark following a flawed judgment and yet expect kudos from the discerning. The one in his team who dissented presented a more credible argument.
I love you all MALAYSIANS!!
The Chief Justice’s statement in the judgement makes it clear that he has let his personal beliefs as a Muslim become a primary factor in his forming the judgement.
I believe the proper practice under our legal system is if a judge understads that his personal situation or belief system will create and in-buit prejudice in his evaluation of the case, he should recuse himself.
If he doesn’t do so, he is at risk of doing a miscarriage of justice.
Kiitykat, it appears that he has already done that in clear view of the World too.
religion + state(administration) = religious state.
challenge the head of state = challenge Almighty.
see the ‘realpolitik’ now?
the next step we’ll see is some party trying to be Party of God/Almighty/All-Powerful/Galactus/Beyonder/etc.
From the words of Dato’ Ahmad Reejal Arbee, former Chief Editor Berita Harian, as published in http://www.mykmu.net:
“Nonetheless arising from this verdict there is paranoia among the non-Muslims including the western press accusing Malaysia of succumbing to Muslim extremists’ pressures. Their conclusion: religious freedom has taken a beating in this country and that Islam is indeed intolerant.
But what are the facts.
The Federal Constitution do indeed guarantee freedom of worship to everyone in this country. However this landmark case gives a distinction in such freedom accorded to Muslims and non-Muslims. For the non-Muslims the freedom is unquestionable. That is he can profess whatever religion that he wants including changing his religion to another. So what is there for the non-Muslims to complain?
But for the Muslims freedom of worship is not given in the absolute. A Muslim who wants to convert needed to follow certain procedures set out by the various Syariah Enactments in operation in the various states. What the Federal Court sets out then was that a Muslim wanting to relinquish his religion needed to apply to the Syariah court for a declaration. He should not try to get recourse from the Civil Court.
Not many know that before this case became a cause celebre there had been Muslims who had converted to other religions and allowed by the Syariah Court without any fanfare. Lawyer Pawancheek Merican who heads Defenders of Islam, a coalition of 80 Muslim non-governmental organisations, set up following a spate of religious disputes that have strained race relations in Malaysia believed that some 15 to 20 Muslims have been allowed to leave Islam officially through the Syariah Court. Thus rightly Lina Joy still have some recourse.”
And some people use this case as an opportunity to do Islam bashing and politicize the matter :
“But the problem is that for one reason or another people behind Lina Joy had seen fit to take a confrontationist stance in so far as her conversion is concerned by bringing it to the Civil Court.
A posting by a Voice in the Malaysia Today website summed up what some Muslims believe: If these are private issues, why is the American based Beckett’s funding her defense and expensive legal team? Why are certain deviant Muslim groups getting Konrad Adreneur Foundation’s funding and assistance? Why is Singapore sympathiser New Straits Times and Sun giving much voice to those super liberal Muslims and refuse the right of replies by progressive and more authoritative Muslim groups?”
Dato’ Reejal sums it up:
“This should also be a reminder that converting to Islam is a serious thing. It is not just something of a whim. Even if the conversion was done out of necessity because of marriage, the convert’s belief in the religion should be strengthened with stronger faith in time. So that even when a marriage ends in failure the convert will remain a true Muslim and not revert back to his former religion.
For the Malays there is another dimension to the problem. Constitutionally a Malay is also a Muslim. Once he ceased to be a Muslim he is not longer recognised as a Malay under the provisions of the Constitution.”
It is clearly a miscarriage of justice….kittykat.
They should actually declare are they UMNO members? If so…also excuse themselves…BEFORE the start of the case.
UMNO is the main party drafting out the Constitution 50 years ago.
Therefore ..for the sake of upholding principles in life..which judges should treasure most..or else how to be a judge?
And more that that…not be be shown as hypocritical …obvious one sided down right unfair judgment…also should excuse themselves.
All three judges need not be Muslims to give fair judgments…and all may not even needed to be malays.
Judges need not be murderers…rapists…con men…same race to give fair judgments all over the world….why so specially needed here in Malaysia?
What I am saying is that judges from Buddhist or Hindhu faiths…mostly Chinese or Indian decendants can also give equally brilliant and fair judgments on Lina Joy case. Why must it be Muslim judges?
go and blame the LEARNED JUDGES, go and blame the whole establishement when it’s doesnt suit you. LAW is LAW got it! as Hafiedz said “people need to understand that Islam is not just a religion, but its an institution.” so non muslim dont meddle around by dsguising under human rights. We muslim never interfere with your faith and non muslim are guaranteed free to profess their faith among themself. Official religeon of the country is ISLAM respected that.Period.
Hello Fauzi n haziful.You not need to argue with all this people.You all realise or not the question that i ask still no answer from this monsterball or nobody that suport Lina JOy.I just ask them one question to all.If someone betray our country.The punishment that wait is death penalty. But if someone betray the god.What the punishment that we need to give to this person.???If u say no death penalty that mean country is more high or big than a god.That mean status your god more lower than the country.Think about that friend.Is that LINA JOY IS MORE BIG THAN A GOD…
Here comes a twister. Better not argue with another moron…except to say out-dated laws for modern times and living conditions …especially becoming a hindrance to sincerely unite all as Malaysians are as good as unjust laws made by unjust men….period
Indonesia is also a country of ISLAM with ten times more people than us. Do they think like the above guy?
Is not Indonesia the biggest Islamic country in the world?
I forgot…..Are we not closet to INDONESIA?
I quote…’we muslims”…meaning malays…’non muslims”….meaning other races.
Go read…who actually are racialists in our country.
We all treat your question stupid and non related issue…that’s why no answer…..NO I LIKE the truth.
NOT I LIKE the truth….Who are you to decide God is not loving Lina Joy more than you?
Indonesia is an inferior country compare to Malaysia. We have better laws compared to them. Our company’s act, securities act, banking act, income tax act, contract law and tort law are much, much, much superior to them. Our laws involving the management of domestic issues and family matters are also better than theirs. In every single way Malaysian laws are superior to Indonesian.
What lame arguments about Indonesia being the largest Muslim country, therefore they should be better? Utterly absolute nonsense!
The Word Islamic Economic Forum is held in Kuala Lumpur, not Jakarta. The Malaysian Prime Minister is OIC Chairman and not the Indonesian President. Malaysian Muslims per capita perform Hajj annually many, many more than the Indonesian Muslims per capita.
We are not talking about inferior or superior country…but freedom of religion. religions do not recognize wealth….but hearts of the population.
And for Big Dog’s information…..all those he mentioned does not mean Indonesia is inferior. It is just they use their obvious hard earned money wisely for building better roads,…water system….of a country 10 times bigger than Malaysia . So for country building ..we are far far behind INDONESIA….BUT TO SHOW OFF….WE ARE THE BEST IN THE WORLD.
Don’t worry Monsterball, what we are witnessing is that unmistakenly parody and indoctrinated presumption of being closer to ‘God’ on account of belonging to a certain Creed. Being told that theirs is the only and best faith on earth and are hence the ‘best people on earth’, takes its toll on the otherwise normal intelligence and rationality of such people.
First of all, theirs is not a ‘God’ in like other reference to the same in the other Monotheistic faiths. Theirs has a name and has set and ascribed attributes. We know that a Conceptual God like as in an All-That-Is simply cannot have any anthropomorphic qualities. Any studied and thoughtful person with depth and sagacity will understand this. Also any founders or leaders of Monotheism can hardly have blood on his hands. What sort of (good)example can that set? Unless, of course one is actually worshiping some ancient war god that claims to be God……a fierce and demanding entity. Then it figures.
Any modern thinker(from all Persuasions and Traditions) can easily agree that a religion is true to the extent that it teaches Love and false to the extent that it preaches Hate. This is the real requisite Realpolitik in religion today. Is there any other that overrides this?
I suggest Big Dog go to Indonesia…I mean travel whole of Indonesia and not just one city.
Then lets talk Indonesia.
“”NO1LIKE the truth made such reference to and made an analogy wrt GOD. Please define GOD…in your own understanding and words, not the indoctrinated version.
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To actually reply to this: if someone betrays a country, it is the country that punishes him or her. If someone betrays God, God is the one that delivers the punishment. Are you, perhaps, God, His prophet, or his assigned representative on Earth? I’m fairly sure if God chooses to punish a non-believer, He won’t need your help.
All this, of course, is already assuming that leaving your particular religion is betraying God. You can choose to believe that, but refusing to even consider that others may disagree with you is just plain blind faith.
The above, in reply to #59.
ML : ” if God chooses to punish a non-believer, He won’t need your help.”
Indeed the needing of human help would actually suggests a medieval and weak war god…not even a plausible God.
“I want to go to NRD tomorrow and change my race to “mat salleh” because suddenly my eyes turned blue and I dyed my hair blond.”
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The reason I put the scenario in was because under this circumstance,even when religion has nothing to do with it, there would still be objections. NRD would probably not allow it and even if it does, I am quite certain that there are certain laws and procedures that need to be complied with.
In lina’s issue, there are laws on it and it happens that we are not living in indonesia or us or australia. It happens that the civil laws here could not override sharia laws. Why? Because every country has its own unique history on how how it came into being. Do we have to tell everyone to go back to school and learn about malaysia history and the compromises made between the races? May be we should. There are laws and procedure and yes, the constitution.Live with it. I, for one, would not have any objection should lina wants to be a christians. But she was born a muslim and she is bound by it by virtue of that.. Live with it lah.
Miscarriage of justice? Where? Because our laws are different and thereby are inferior to US and even Indonesia? To say that we should be like Indonesia, singapore or US or Alaska is just a plain stupid argument.
Now, I want to go to NRD, to change my race to caucasian tomorrow. I hope there is a budhist or christians or hindus organization who will help me…
This issue is about laws and the constitutions. Why are we arguing about God and religion? I am sorry to say that NOT one single soul here is qualified to say the rights and wrongs of Islam or hindu or budha. I know one monk in kepong and I dont think it made me an expert on his religion.
The Fonz – June 1, 2007 – I am issuing you a challenge. Please state what is your religion now and I bet that I can belittle yours thousand of times better. Try me and we’ll start a civil war. What are you trying to achieve? I am wondering what kind of religion teaches you that talks.
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Malays could be real moron they never learn. repeat the same garbage over again and they will continue to react to them mindlessly.
Lina’s case is not unexpected especially when “they” are inculcated with “seized mentality” in the past 22 years of tun M’s policies and here they are rearing their ugly heads again.
tun’s m statement that one may leave the religion and gave up their rights have been REINTERPRETED by morons and justification to rally these seized mentality idiots.
to rally them for constructive causes is one thing but to conjecture that there are bogey men out there planning some covert operations to disprove their honored race as if they are really one.
these seized mentalities are actually the main problem that is causing the break down of system – in this case the cj’s incompetent decision – highly hallucinative and serving no purpose except to make them feel as if they are men of honor standing up and defending their race and religion.
this seized mentalities are actually low class mental states highly contagious among the ignorants and cowards – as can be observed in tribal settings – in africa and middle eastern cultures esp. (third and fourth world countries) where those people react better to rumors than facts and realities.
(u are welcome to delete my comments but suggest you leave it as it is)
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Now Jean, why would you say that, ” I am sorry to say that NOT one single soul here is qualified to say the rights and wrongs of Islam or hindu or budha.”? You don’t need a person or a soul to judge that, the Truth itself will. Any person will only need to point it put.
Perhaps you have met one monk in Kepong but others may have been far more exposed. Besides its your(?) ‘holy book’ that is known to have referered to Kaffirs as najis. I have so happened been unable to find similar fierce verses like these elsewhere:
9:5, 9:29, 4:24, 4:92, 8: 69, 24:33, 33:50, 2:193, Muslim book 8 chapter 10, abu dawud 41.5251, Tabari VIII:179, Ishaq:580, Tabari VII:19, etc… I happened to have read at least some of the major books and have a comparative bearing on the matter.
Oh sure, some smart ass could come up with reference to the fierce part of the book of Mani, e.g., and starts telling about how the extreme description of torturing unbelievers were far worse etc. etc…like pouring molten lead down their throats etc etc.. But everyone knows that the ancient book of Mani was no major work and almost forgotten for a long long time. Your(?) book however is regarded as current to the last detail and that’s where the problem springs from.
It’s easier to deny that some ppl are more obsessed by religion than it is to accept that some religious doctrines are not actually against Humanism. Then there is also the verdict of History conclude by. If ther had been no Jihads, there would have been no Crusades. If there had been no Jihads, the grandson of Jenghis Khan, Helugu Khan wouldn’t have nearly exterminated the muslims in his time. Please Jean, read ’em all first, then conclude. Bigotry and parochialism from religion has a lot to do with messing up the world.
Correction: It’s easier to deny that some ppl are more obsessed by religion than others AND that some religious doctrines ARE ACTUALLY against Humanism.
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seized should have been sieged
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jeancumlately post is understandable but not sensible.
‘live with it”….so said she and few others in the Constitutions and laws’
I say those are made by men and not God and what most of our arguments were focusing a true united country..with no race nor religion to separate us…calling ourselves as Malaysians……few malays use God to challenge us…of which above oA and few others have pointed out well. You have said so many things…yet did not correct the wrong mentalities of your race..why?..live with it?..or is it that it is unique…so lets again live with it? Unique in what ….jeancumlately….please explain.
Just because few foreigners praise us for our uniqueness…we are proud of it…so lets live with it?
NO…We with not live with it!! We will also not run away from it…as it now making a mockery of modern times living conditions..situations. we are beginning to be UNIQUE clowns to the world…a we modernize our country so far…yet laws are fro the jungle people.
BY LAWS’ to the constitutions or any laws that need to be upgraded for the better future of our country and our people.
Britain has a track record to divide and rule..they master minded our constitutions. It maybe good to divide and rule 50 years ago..to sort of ..you do your thing..I do my to lets build the country together.
But Vision2020 was not discussed at that time.
I am concluding my message to tell jeancumlately that maybe Fronz maybe harsh…but please don’t challenge him. He has his rights to reply as he feels…so are many oppositions…and to many many students of religions…one teacher is good enough…so don’t insult Buddhism by you saying you know a monk….who cares. or are you implying some of us know nothing about religious faith or comparative religions discussions…jeancumlately?….again please clarify….as you are quite sarcastic with this point. What we are concern..AND THIS NOT SARCASTIC..is ….whether are there enough real Islamic teachers to open the eyes of their faith to unite us all as Malaysians….by using the Koran
jeancumlately have totally forgotten..other races are treated as second class citizens…as visitors…even though not true…yet spoken all these years…which is encouraged by the so call out-dated constitutions.
A simple supplementary by law could have been drafted by expert law makers…with clear meaning to solve a case like Lina Joy…by actually giving no powers to any religious organizations to stop anyone from changing their faiths. No the government keep ignoring it.
What are we trying to achieve? …why simple…our rights to be really free…and I speak for all races….including malays.
Civil war will start by talking like this? You sound like a politicians saying…sensitive issue…don’t talk.
Who cares….lets talk and not keep in the hearts like hypocrites anymore.
Actually I am speaking MAINLY for the Malays..if you are wise enough to understand….jeancumlately.
Thank you jeancumlately. The most rationale comment put forth in this thread.
Jean, your, “live with it” bit jangles nerves, not just Monty’s ones and, unless I’m mistaken, is rather unbecoming of a modern person who we presume would be fully opened and gradually enlightened by experience. You may have to scrape the bottom of the barrel to justify the encroaching syariah law to sell it to free men and free women. Whereas if you have said some people have to live with it under protest, then that’s quite different.
It is not in the inherent nature of progressive people and human nature to have to live with bad laws and submit to their dictates without complaints and protest.
Obviously, Lina could not live with that ; her conscience itself could not. Human progress was never achieved by “living with it” and there’s nothing unchanging in this Universe. mankind is driven by an innate force to progress(upwards, in a manner of speaking) – no matter how very slowly. It’s actually the mad figment of limited Arabic imagination that conceive anything as being immutable. It served their imperialistic end and for this selfish reason brought a bane upon mankind, especially those under their jurisdiction.
The Gospels quoted that Jesus sermon on the mount which said, among other worthy things, “Blessed are the Meek for they shall inherit the Earth.” Never anything resembling the likes of “holy wars” fueled by an ideology that proclaim that the World is bestowed on true believers.
Compassion should be the Guiding Light of all human laws, not rigidly punitive and barbaric observances in a pursuit to be holier than holy.
Kittykat has already mentioned how the Court ruling is flawed because a CJ wouldn’t recluse himself as he should have. Kittykat has also rightly answered to FL’s reference to the fallacious technicality of the situation by asking how many muslims actually were allowed to officially leave their religion via the syariah court. I recall one old Buddhist woman who was allowed that – after death. Big deal!
One can’t claim a verse stating no compulsion in religion only to do the opposite. That’s a duplicity that will always be commonly known as hypocrisy. It hints strongly at the innate double speak that characterize a Creed. Semantics can only be tortured only to a certain degree before everyone else cries, “Wolf!”
wits0 I have to admit and respect your knowledge on Islam, other religions and other things. I was also tempted to commment on other religions based on books that I read, people that I met and courses that I took. But I would refrain from doing so because it ain’t enough. Even if I know a few phrases from here and there, I would not be able to capture its spirit and the philosophy behind the religion. Just like budha, it took more than just reading a few books and meeting a few people to know the meaning of God and enlightenment in Islam. Simply because of that, I would never dare to comment on budhism because little knowledge can be dangerous.
Monty, its good for you to defend fonz. Its for the sake of free speech I guess. Yes, he has the right to reply and so do I. Just tell me what is his religion coz I just feel like going ballistic and have a taste of free speech this time around..
My whole point is simple guys. Its about law and the constitution. Like Monty said “A simple supplementary by law could have been drafted by expert law makers…” or something of that nature. The law is already there and yes, its binding. Change it or work around it. Why are we putting Islam, Malay to trial?
With all honesty, I would’ve stayed out of this debate but after reading fonz’s comment… geez.
Anybody, wanna help me change the “race” in myKad? We could start by having a press conference tomorrow, call up reuters, AFP and so on. I could prove that I am a caucasian. I have blue eyes, blond hair and yes I have an American boyfriend who would marry me the minute my race is changed. Help me, I am being denied of my rights to choose my race.
Re: #74. jeancumlately:
“There are laws and procedure and yes, the constitution.Live with it. I, for one, would not have any objection should lina wants to be a christians. But she was born a muslim and she is bound by it by virtue of that.. Live with it lah.”
Still, isn’t that precisely the problem? Notwithstanding that this case seems to imply that the constitutional freedom of religious belief is being ignored (which is hardly a minor issue), to say that just because she is a Muslim (or a member of any other group) she should just ‘live with it’ is an attitude that allows any sort of restrictive behaviour. Perhaps severely underpaid labourers should just ‘live with it’, since they found themselves in that situation; or perhaps the blacks in the U.S. 50-100 years ago should also have just ‘lived with it’: after all, they were born like that.
The very idea that the more restrictive an organisation is, the more leeway should be given to it, simply creates greater incentive for further repressive practices. It’s not exactly the sort of principle a society should be trying to encourage.
Monsterball,
On behalf of my malay friends, thank you for speaking MAINLY for the them. u are their truly saviour. I’m gonna now ask them to read your comments in all the blogs. We shall see them change after a month or two. Just nice for election time.
rgds,
I donno if you all picked this news up or not but a man was switched at birth to a malay couple and was taught to be a malay and muslim. he found out that he’s a non-malay and now is trying to get his real identity back and renouce Islam and remove Islam from he’s IC. He did this just right after Lina’s verdict so we have another round of testing the waters….
maybe the Judge now will say its Allah’s will and he shall have no choice but remain a Muslim…. now is it Allah’s will that the Malay baby that now eats non-halal food and plays with dogs gets to stay un-malay & un-muslim? something to ponder over?
http://sean-the-man.blogspot.com/2007/05/non-muslim-muslim-and-then-non-muslim.html
Bigdog is this the sort of country and islam you mean?
http://www.wtlv.com/news/strange/news-article.aspx?storyid=75244
The Malay boy that the Teo family brought home because of the mix-up was raised as Tian Fa, and is now married to a Chinese woman, according to The Star. Tian Fa told the newspaper he has no intention of looking for his biological family and is happy to treat Teo and his wife, Lim Sai Hak, as his parents.
will they catch him now? since Malay=Muslim in constitution?
Jean: “I would never dare to comment on budhism because little knowledge can be dangerous.”
Why exactly would it be dangerous? They’re not about to fatwa you like what Rushdie got. Now, as if Rushdie himself had only “a little knowledge”. Also when is “a little knowledge” never enough.
I put it to you that once the core thrust of a religion or ideology is understood, that “little knowledge” no longer applies anyone. For your defense, you might have need of generations and generations of scholars in the attempt to whitewash what is clearly unpalateable especially outside the box.
In fact if you like to comment on the Buddhist philosophy, that be be helpful. I myself has no compunction to severely criticized the Dalai Lama when he talked rubbish to the Press. I’m sure Monsterball would also welcome the idea of free exchanges unlike some people who avoid and forbade dialogue. Why? For the simple reason that its safer to dwell in the delusion of supreme righteousmness as afforded by unfairly accorded man-made law of the land.
Whattahack, re: comment 88 & 89.
Another good one.
We seem to see the MSM’s obscurantist PC pratice at its best. No further mention of that case, AFAIK.
I mean in comment 87 & 88.
Awaiting another flawed judgement.
jeancumlately…We are not putting Islam or malays on trial.
We are putting the out-dated CONSTITUTIONS on trial….thus indirectly challenging the government. You see..it is so nice for the malays to have …all the goodies..then feel upset when thinking someone is trying to take away their goodies? No dear. ..those so call goodies are seperating us apart…and further more…those goodies for past 50 years have not worked well to unite people….but continuously divide the races and religions. Furthermore…it definitely did not benefit ALL malays. It infect…weakens the character to be spooned fed.
Get it very very clear….Buddhists believes in TRUTHS…1000 years before Islam …so if you are hungry for truths…we have no quarrels with any other religions. We also say..believers of truths are all Buddhist…be it any religion. It is stretching it too far by some fanatics…with ridiculous logics…that the real truths are being distorted. Who are they? Why the malays ofcourse.
GOD IS IN ALL HUMANS MINDS…and God comes in many forms….and when I say this….again fanatics will say I am insulting Islam….not true.
That’s why I say…I am speaking mainly for the majority malays because so much are being controlled in the name of a religion..that more and more will understand….that’s not a religious life…but a controlled life….through a religion. That was good 250 years ago in Africa….when the Europeans used religion to conquer countries and control people’s minds.
Why are we so blind not realizing this is exactly happening in Malaysia….but only to the malays..no one else. So are you very proud to be mind and body controlled?
So I repeat..malays either love me or hate me like poison for speaking the truths…what do you think jeancumlately?
One forgets..50 years ago…when we just got Independence….we are a very very poor country….depending on rubber and tin exports.
I suspect King Fizal of Saudie Arabia promised to promote the ISLAMIC RELIGION…provided ALL MALAYS must embrace the religion…no two ways about it. It was good and wise for Tunku and all to agree….after all….it the malays was the largest and most UNEDUCATED race in Malaysia..
But politicians use this noble act to twist and turn into dirty politics.
Had it not been done so…the constitution would have by -laws to free the malays..as they are now MORE EDUCATED and can think for themselves. we al know..UMNO politicians can talk …but have no guts to correct things…so much so…they are truly real hypocrites to the malays.
Same as the so call ‘bumiputra’ status. 15 years ago…say anything against the ….more kris loving politicians will shout and yell. Before that May 13th materialised….but now people are educated and can discuss things with open minds…..except few fanatics…quite natural still there. Now….actually the malays are feeling shy to be call bumiputra…go find out why. Yet this is still not corrected as out-dated protection for the malays.
Malaysians are patient and tolorating people…as more day to day serious matters needed immediately attentions…thus no one speaks so vigorously like before. that does not mean….everyone accept this spoon fed law..that is actually not building up strong and independent malays.
Simple logic…go pamper your child …up to 50 years old…and lets see what type of a man this child will become.
But if the child wants RM1…and a father said..you earn it by polishing 10 pairs of my shoes…that child will value the hard earned RM1….and even feel proud he earned it.
Some of u guys freely pass judgments on other ppl’s race & religion, resorted to name-calling and expect others to consume your xenophobic comments while hiding under pseodonyms.
Such bravery & courage in the world wide web where no one can see u or even hear your voice.
What a joke.
jeancumlately……you said the by-law is there for any malay to easily change their religion?
What bloody nonsense are you talking about?
1. Saya melihat isu murtad dari sudut pandangan seorang Islam. Saya tidak melihatnya dari sudut Perlembagaan Malaysia, freedom, humanity atau apa-apa pun selain sudut pandangan Islam.
2. Di dalam Islam, terdapat perintah Allah yang menghendaki saya mengamalkan amar ma’ruf nahi munkar. Menyeru kepada yang baik dan mencegah yang munkar. Dalam Bahasa Inggeris, ada orang terjemah sebagai enjoin what is good and forbid what is evil.
3. Amar ma’ruf nahi munkar diwajibkan ke atas umat Islam. It is an obligation. Period.
4. Murtad atau apa yang orang putih kata apostasy adalah kemunkaran yang terbesar di dalam Islam dan tidak akan diampunkan sama sekali oleh Allah, kecuali orang yang murtad itu bertaubat.
5. Saya tidak tahu dengan jelas apakah hukuman ke atas orang yang murtad di atas dunia ini. Saya juga tidak mahu berlagak sebagai ulama untuk menghuraikan apakah hukuman ke atas orang murtad atau sama ada terdapat hukuman atau tidak.
Jika terdapat hadith yang menyatakan orang yang murtad hendaklah dihukum bunuh, saya tidak tahu sejauh manakah kuatnya hadith itu untuk dijadikan asas untuk menjalankan hukuman ke atas orang yang murtad. Saya tidak tahu dan saya tak mahu berlakon dan berlagak sebagai orang yang tahu atau mahir mengenainya.
6. Oleh kerana murtad adalah kemunkaran terbesar di dalam Islam, saya wajib menentangnya.
7. Penentangan saya terhadap perbuatan murtad tidak bertentangan dengan Perkara 11 Perlembagaan Malaysia yang menyatakan, tiap-tiap orang adalah berhak menganut dan mengamalkan agamanya. Amar ma’ruf nahi munkar adalah amalan yang fundamental dalam agama saya, Islam.
8. Oleh kerana saya sangat gembira jika orang-orang bukan Islam memeluk Islam, tentulah orang-orang bukan Islam juga gembira jika orang-orang Islam memeluk agama mereka. Oleh sebab itu, tentulah saya tidak gembira apabila keinginan memeluk agama Islam disekat dan tentulah orang-orang bukan Islam juga tidak gembira apabila keinginan memeluk agama mereka dihalang. It is natural. Kita tak perlu berpura-pura atau menyembunyikan perasaan kita dengan smokescreen mengenai perkara itu.
9. Apabila menghadapi halangan, tentulah akan berlaku penentangan dan luahan kekecewaan serta kemarahan. It is also natural.
10. Saya boleh bersabar dengan pelbagai luahan kekecewaan dan letupan sakit hati orang-orang bukan Islam terhadap keputusan kes Lina Joy, termasuk tajuk berita Malaysiakini. Tajuk itu tidak ditulis oleh penulis berita tersebut, Soon Li Tsin. Oleh kerana saya melihat perkara itu sebagai sesuatu yang natural, saya boleh bersabar.
11. Kerana keputusan kes Lina Joy, saya melihat banyak berita, rencana dan posting di dalam blog yang menghina, meludah, kencing dan berak di atas kepala kami, umat Islam. Perbuatan durjana itulah yang saya benci, saya tentang dan saya lawan. Ramai yang melakukannya tetapi saya yakin (saya ulangi, saya yakin) tidak termasuk berita yang ditulis oleh Soon Li Tsin, posting di dalam blog Lucia Lai atau Zewt. Jika apa yang mereka tulis itu berbaur dengan perasaan kecewa dan marah, it is also natural.
12. Saya juga tidak boleh bersabar dan akan berlawan habis-habisan dengan celaka-celaka yang mendakwa beragama Islam tetapi pada masa yang sama gian dan ketagih sangat menggalak serta cuba memudahkan gejala murtad di kalangan umat Islam. Syaitan-syaitan itu adalah musuh saya dan saya peduli apa jika mereka memakai smokescreen yang bernama freedom, humanity atau apa sahaja untuk menghalalkan kedurjanaan mereka. La’natuLlah ‘alaihim ajma’in.
Kepada celaka-celaka dan syaitan-syaitan durjana yang saya sebutkan dalam penjelasan nombor 12 di atas, marilah kita bermusuh! No two ways! – http://www.penarikbeca.blogspot.com/
No joy for Lina
May 30, 07 11:18am:
Lina Joy’s long wait for her conversion to Christianity to be
recognised by law is over – the Federal Court ruled today that she
remains a Muslim and her religious status will not be removed from her
identity card.
Delivering the judgment to a packed gallery this morning in Putrajaya,
Chief Justice Ahmad Fairuz Sheikh Abdul Halim ruled that jurisdiction
remains with the Syariah court.
The chief justice stated that he concurred with the majority decision
– Justice Alauddin Mohd Sheriff who was the last to read his judgment
agreed with Ahmad Fairuz’s findings.
Justice Richard Malanjun gave a dissenting judgment.
The case hinged on a decision by the National Registration Department
not to remove the word `Islam’ from Lina’s MyKad.
The department said it needed a syariah court order certifying her
renouncement from Islam before it could make the change.
The three questions
Following this, Lina filed a suit against the NRD director-general,
the government and the Federal Territory Religious Council in 2001.
After losing at both the High Court and Court of Appeal, the matter
finally came to the Federal Court with these three questions:
1. Was the NRD entitled to require a person to produce a certificate
or a declaration or an order from the syariah court before deleting
“Islam” from his or her identity card;
2. Did the NRD correctly construe its powers under the National
Registration Regulations 1990 when it imposed the above requirement,
which is not expressly provided for in the regulations?; and
3. Was the landmark case Soon Singh vs Perkim Kedah – which held that
syariah courts have the authority over the civil courts to hear cases
of Muslims renouncing Islam – correctly decided?
Delivering the much-awaited judgment today, Ahmad Fairuz and Alauddin
answered in the positive to all these three questions.
Richard however disagreed, stating that the NRD had no statutory duty
to decide on apostasy.
Ahmad Fairuz said the NRD, which is in charge of issuing identity
cards, had the right to demand that a syariah court certify Lina’s
conversion.
“On the question that the National Registration Department has the
right to demand a certification from the Islamic court that confirms
the appellant’s renunciation of Islam, my answer is that NRD has the
right,” he said.
“The appeal has been rejected with cause,” he added.
Shouts of Allahuakbar
A large section of the 300-strong crowd waiting outside recited the
tahlil or read the Quran while waiting for the decision.
When the news reached them, they shouted Allahuakbar – their reaction
resounded through the Palace of Justice.
Born to Malay parents, Joy, 43, whose Muslim name was Azlina Jailani,
converted to Christianity in 1998.
If I recall..the by-law also said if a malay gives up the Islam religion..he also ceased to be a muslim….or a malay…meaning no more special treatment..no more bumiputra status……something like that.
Correct me …if I am wrong.
So you call this a just and fair by-law?
Chaonz wrote:
“Such bravery & courage in the world wide web where no one can see u or even hear your voice.
What a joke.”
It’s not about courage or a show of it ; it’s about the truth as understood by any commentator in a given situation. As such, if you can disprove their opinion, that’s what matters. It’s your poor taste that decides that as a joke.
The facts are always easily available today and it’s how you react to them that determines your own mental soundness or lack of that.
Denial has always been the easiest response and deflecting them into a matter of courage or lack of is actually besides the point but serve as a primitive kneejerk response of little brilliance.
Monty: jeancumlately……you said the by-law is there for any malay to easily change their religion? What bloody nonsense are you talking about?
Either I am getting confused or you were. I wrote this: Like Monty said “A simple supplementary by law could have been drafted by expert law makers…”
Monty, I was quoting you! I never said the malays can easily change the religion, did I?
I know that it is difficult but it is the law nevertheless. Its ok to challenge the law or even the constitution. Why do we have to turn every issue into islam and malay bashing?
The Fonz – June 1, 2007
Islam is the only stupid religion for morons who believe in a very stupid dog…I mean god. Muslims had never and will never progress but instead retard. Neither did they or will they ever contribute constructively to mankind, be it through inventions or being charitable. The only best thing they know is greed through corruption, sex with 4 wives, death to apostasy and violence with what they term others as infidels.
What a bunch of idiots we do have here on earth among us.
Wits0… this is what this guy think is “truth”. And I know that you and I would not agree with this version of truth but as you said it: “its about the truth as understood by any commentator in a given situation.” Pretty dangerous don’t you think? And he can also claim to be an expert on Islam…
What I was trying to say is that, be careful with our mouth when commenting on other religion or race. Little knowledge can be very dangerous.
jeancumlately…..I did say correct me if I am wrong..but instead of making it clearer…you not making it easier…..so lets move on.
Jean…What Fonz wrote..is based on his truths found about those hypocritical muslims….championing such matters concerning Lina Joy.
It is quite common argument made by other races against fanatics.
Go now…see how commenters are laughing over such matters as a truthful joke…..but you choose his remark to talk …..somewhat saying.. those guys above have the rights to say all those illogical things about God…..judging Lina Joy?
I have known you quite sometime now in blogging….we used to teased you on matters concerning failures in getting a right man to get married. All these are started by the fact…each time you put out a message..you sound desperate or being F…up…thus hate men so much. This hatred is quite clearly seen your your writing.
But if you focus your well built hatred on men into another subject like this…you can be quite idiotic and vicious. I bet a smart bitch like you know what Fonz said is a joke…already told almost everywhere…but you ignore and want to use that to debate…with me and witsO..who knows you so well.
Please do not treat this subject as a joke….but do put out a smart joke like Fonz…based on the subject is excellent….can you out bid his wits?
102. jeancumlately – June 4, 2007
” Pretty dangerous don’t you think? And he can also claim to be an expert on Islam… ”
yes and the sort of hatred cuts both ways… some muslim thinks likewise as well and will have no problem staking a keris at you and your whole family one day. hatred goes both ways its Satan’s best weapon against humans. “to get humans to kill humans” cause of communication breakdown and insecurity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate
“Hatred” is also used to describe feelings of prejudice, bigotry or condemnation (see shunning) against a person, or a group of people, such as racism, and intense religious or political prejudice.
I guess end of the day SATAN wins not the muslims or non-muslims.
One might think that revenge against someone that mocked you and your religion you are defending yourself and religion. You think I am doing GOD’s work to kill this person as he is mocking my GOD hence he is working for SATAN. But how wrong can a person be when he takes the role of GOD to punish another Human being.
In actual fact he is acting on behalf of SATAN and did just what SATAN planned for him – that is to get himself filled with hatred and act in vengence. Everyone claims to be working for GOD even when they are caught killing someone else. Its GOD that asked me to do this, to cleanese these Sinners from this land….
I cannot believe that there are such cold-hearted people in the world who actually say that Lina Joy deserves death. While Islam needs to be respected as a religion, it is NOT a country. If Malaysia is part of the UN, shouldn’t it adhere to the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights? and freedom of religion is among one of them. Furthermore, in the Quran, the apostate is supposedly threatened with punishment in the NEXT WORLD (aka, whatever comes for us humans after we die), not in the PRESENT WORLD. While she might be scorned and criticized by others for renouncing Islam, those practicing it should not have the right to put her to death.
And lets look at the facts too. Ms Lina Joy was born into a Muslim family, so lets consider the fact that she never had much choice in whether she wanted Islam as her religion before.
Lets face it: preventing a person from renouncing Islam is not upholding Islam’s rules and regulations. It is unlawfully taking away one of their declared rights, it is taking away their right of freedom of religion. I don’t think Islam wants the world to remember it like that.
For those who say that she should have sought approval from the Syriah Court, yeah, it would be way faster and better for her that way. But apparently, in some states, renouncing Islam is criminalized by the SC, maybe even with the death penalty (some only i think!). And the SC is known to be reluctant to let people renounce Islam.
Re: #23. NO1LIKE the truth
” Democracy what stupid u all..Democracy for politic not religion.I just have one question to u all.If someone betray our country.The punishment that wait is death penalty. But if someone betray the god.What the punishment that we need to give to this person.???If u say no death penalty that mean country is more high or big than a god.That mean status your god more lower than the country.Think about that friend. ”
while religion is repected and so on, unless Gods have been actually proven to exist, you can’t drag them into normal courts.
Don’t get me wrong: i believe in a God too, but in this case, Lina Joy no longer believes in that religion, and therefore whatever “religious punishments” that must apply to her should be taken from her new religion (Christianity doesn’t have any, btw). Comparing religion to a country totally does not make sense too. You can refer to some other posts here to see the difference
haziful, Islam falls under the catergory of “religion”. there is no “best religion” or “most real religion” or anything like that. All religions deserve equal respect. except stupid cults that cut and sacrifice people and so on. While muslims get special treatment in malaysia, the rights of other ppl have to be respected to. If everyone takes ur point of view abt their own religion, there would be havoc when every religion insists that it reigns supreme over all the others. With no religious tolerance, the courts would be having a very, very hard time.
Eg. In the middle east a woman kills a guy in self defense and she gets executed for killing him because the Islam law says so. Then maybe another religion interferes and insists that she is right and clashes occur. Violence and chaos.
Monty, I would not comment on personal matters. Yup, I had been called old and ugly and now you called me desperate bitch … I had never resorted to name-calling out of respect for the blog owner, readers, commenters and most of all, whetever I said, would reflect on me.
We may have the opportunity to meet one day and see for yourself the person you called a desperate bitch…
Wattahack… agree with you totally.
If I ever meet you one day….I may turn to be the desperado and make a fool of myself. No thanks…Delilah…you devil you…stay far far away from me. I am too old to make silly mistake…as my bloody heart still thinks he is young…telling my mind to go for it. No sireee…you stay away from me. I KNOW YOU!!…..hahahahahahaha
jeancumlately
I take off my hat to you for responding in the nicest way possible to someone who called you names.
That is a lesson indeed in conducting ourselves in an open discussion like this.
You area REAL lady. jean.
wattahack, I ditto yr.statement #105
EW: It’s a tough call to let some of those through but didn’t want to censor or edit anyone, though the appeal for no-name-calling here didn’t quite go well.
jeancumlately and monsterball are the chicken and duck…don’t you all know that? We quarrel…but we love and trust each other sincerely…one muslim…another Buddhist.
So you all learn something about tolerance and understandings?
Wren, “If everyone takes ur point of view abt their own religion, there would be havoc when every religion insists that it reigns supreme over all the others.”
I know of only one that proclaims that supremacist thing and that’s a real problem at its root.
.
chaoz said ..
Such bravery & courage in the world wide web where no one can see u or even hear your voice.
What a joke.
—–
When it comes to truth you dont have to be somebody.
Truth is beyond courage nor bravery … so stick your righteous crap up your you know what ….
.
LOL… When u guys defined bigotry and expletives as the ‘truth’, it really cracked me up! Your responses have been more amusing than what I’ve expected. *smirk*
So ok lah, I’ll provoke u guys in a different issue next time. EW keep up the good work! To have so many alternative forms of news these days is a great step towards the liberalisation of the local press.
You flatter yourself chaonz. I responded because it was my pleasure rather because I’m provoked. You do not even know how to sneer properly.
chaonz…So you you are the smart one and we all idiots are amusing you of our interpretations on truths.
What do you know about truths in religions ..wise guy chaoz?
Bigots were there..are you blind….or are you just trying to be too smart? amusing you….why chaonz….monkies and idiots are always amused for not knowing how to understand things..always laughing …glad you prove to be one.
Jeancumlately: Bravo to you!
So many people talking about this issue rite now.I think Muslim got serve really bad today in this world.Islamphobia, terrorist n you name more….all point to Islam n its all about bad thing.To tell honestly I always keep faith that one day if we still alife, you all can see the REAL TRUTH coz in this world there are lie anywhere.Our prophet said that oneday(this day already) you cannot see the truth because is like you walking in the dark place(night) and try to see the truth which is very dark than the night.What you can see?You wanna find the truth? We Muslim will keep praying and keep our faith.and if u Muslim pls talk like Muslim.dont made people keep fingering any problem to Islam coz your attitude.and one more thing…there no FULL FREEDOM.if u want,be a atheis.
and please dont talk anymore nonsense about Lina Joy case.
Ck, it may disturb you to know that the “phobia” in Islamophobia means ‘unreasonable fear’. Look it up in any English dictionary, and you’ll find the same definition.
Therefore to call someone “islamophobia” is condescending, if not actually an insult. But the non muslims aren’t about to riot or demonstrate because of such a slight. They are too civilized….unlike the loony demonstration in the muslim world over cartoons! Nor did violence erupted when the Talibans demolished the giant Bamiyah statues in say, Kathmandu or any where else. Small demonstartions in a few isolated places but no death or destruction of properties.
Look at all the upheaval within and without the muslim world and tell the nons that they indulge in unreasonable fear! When you’ve strike out(if you can) jihad from your Creed, then you may begin to have a case.
There’s nothing unreasonable in the nons position and their perception of your faith.
atheist…dictionary says it is a person who does not believe in God.
Dictionaries are all European INTERPRETATIONS.
Buddhists are known to be atheists…so all Buddhist will go to hell…as according to ck writer.
I guess most scientists and doctors will also go to hell…as they cannot simply believe in their professions.
I guess whole of CHINA and India POPULATIONS..ALL GO TO HELL.
Now Christians are being rightfully exposed with their Bible..not holy….but the hundreds of millions followers on Christian faith are also going to hell…because they do not use the Koran book…ck?
I also heard 50 years ago….m,y teacher said same thing to me..that I will go to hell…if I don’t become a Christian….and Islam is teaching this out-dated doctrine?
Why I heard muslims are now hungry for TRUTHS….good for you all. we Buddhists have been saying that 1000 years before Islam was born….so we are now as ONE!!…that is..if you don’t call us atheist anymore with that dirty filthy meaning you learn from the Europeans.
I was about to retire from commenting any further before reading this comment from one learned man.
“In the middle east a woman kills a guy in self defense and she gets executed for killing him because the Islam law says so. Then maybe another religion interferes and insists that she is right and clashes occur. Violence and chaos.”
Wren – June 4, 2007
What do you know about the case Wren? How do you conclude its an Islamic Law? Show me the words from the Koran or the hadith that says “if you killled a man in self defense, you shall be killed.” Or is it just because it happened in the middle east it has to be an islamic law? Or is it just because the one enforcing it was a muslim it must be an islamic law? Do you know the difference between Samy Vellu and Hinduism, Badawi and Islam?
witsO… I was just wondering. If you know that Prophet Mohamad depiction in cartoons or picture is so sensitive to the muslims, would you made fun of it anyway? Why do it? There are things that people hold dear, like your father may be. Do I need to say more on that? Do I need to throw an insult to make a point? And the whole question is, why should I do it if I respect you well enough?
Yes… Although Malaysia is an Islamic country and its majority people is Malay but some of them is not Malay at all. Just go and see in night club or where many people socialize. Most of them drink beer and do others things like us. Many Malays married with non-Muslims, but they still practice their own beliefs. I think the Malaysia constitution on freedom of practice any religion is already EXTINCT and many of us didn’t realize it. just take the example of Lina Joy’s case. I think this apostasy is not just apply to Islam only. Christians too have this. We all have the rights to follow any religion. LAWS DON’T BIND OUR FAITH AND BELIEFS.
Jean, a short one only here.
In the context of a Dutch society, how would you claim to respect your host country and its inhabitants when your thoughts are clearly supremacist in nature and seek to push your ways before others according to the teachings of your(political)Creed with various demands along that of the syariah. The Dutch society and its silent majority surely has a right to regard their institution and traditions as sacred too. In fact, the inane Multiculturalists are respondingly rather mildly.
If you can’t give up anything(let’s say the headscarf – actually a political statement) and only demands things are done only your way, how do you think the Dutch people will feel? You feel Mo is the perfect man but others have diametrically opposite views. So when you attack their outlook, they naturally(unofficially) strikes back at the core of your beliefs – with cartoons. And you responded badly, not doing your image any good.
The Aminah Assilmi Story
Former Baptist explains why she is now a Muslim
By Rebecca Simmons, Abilene Reporter-News, Saturday, November 1, 1997
She was a Southern Baptist girl, a radical feminist, and a broadcast journalist. She was a girl with an unusual caliber, who excelled in school, received scholarships, ran her own business, and were competing with professionals and getting awards – all these while she was going to college. Then one day a computer error happened that made her take up a mission as a devout Christian. Eventually, however, it resulted into something opposite and changed her life completely around… She wears the traditional Islamic hijab, which includes a head scarf, covering her hair and neck and modest clothing with long sleeves….
Meeting her first “real life Muslims” when she took a college theater class some years ago, Assilmi said she almost dropped the class when she walked into the room and saw some Arab students in traditional hijab. In the handbook she authored, “Choosing Islam,” Assilmi writes, “There was no way I was going to sit in a room with dirty heathens. .. I shut the door and went home.” After her husband encouraged her to go back to the theater class, Assilmi said she felt it her duty to “convert the poor, ignorant Muslims.” Hoping to convert the students to Christianity, Assilmi began to study the Koran, the holy book of Islam, in a quest to prove that Mohammed was a false prophet and that Islam was not a valid religion. But the more she read, the more she became interested in Islam. She was particularly interested in what the Koran had to say about men and women. Islamic women, she thought, “were freely beaten by their husbands and tossed aside.” Assilmi says she had based her opinion on stereotypes; and soon found out those ideas were not in keeping with the Koran. Through intense study, she said she learned that Islamic women are equal to men and are paid according to the job they do regardless of their gender. Both men and women have equal rights to education. Islamic women have had the right to own property for more than 1,400 years. And when a woman marries, she does not change her last name, but keeps her father’s last name. “For two years I studied in order to convert Muslims to Christianity,” she said.
For Assilmi, taking Shahadah in 1977 was the first step toward a a deeper understanding of Islam… “I gave up being a women’s liberationist — it wasn’t fulfilling — I became a Muslim … Liberation, yeah, that’s Islam,” said Assilmi who adopted her name during the Iranian hostage crisis in 1980.
An award-winning broadcaster in the Denver market, Assilmi lost her job when she began wearing Islamic dress. She says the persecution is intense. “I’ve been forced off the road before — beaten up — and I’ve never lifted a hand against anyone,” Assilmi said. The defining moment came when she tried to cash a check at her bank wearing the face veil. A bank security guard drew his gun preparing to shoot if she made any questionable moves. For Assilmi, her job as a broadcaster was not the only thing she lost when she first chose Islam. Her marriage over, she also lost custody of her children because the court decided that the “unorthodox religion” would be detrimental to them. But since then, Assilmi says her children have converted to Islam and so have her parents and her ex-husband…………
1- Dengar ceramah beliau “Islam: Liberator of Women” di: http://www.lightuponlight.com/islam/modules.php?name=Stream2&file=index&lid=230
2- Buku Dr Danial yang dipilih ke peringkat Finalis Anugerah Media Islam 2007: http://www.pts.com.my/modules.php?name=Katalog_Buku_v2&op=ViewBookDetails&bid=224
3- Pelancaran Buku Terbaru: http://www.universitipts.com/?p=1746
Strange…we Buddhists can laugh and criticizes ourselves….yet when one start gives negative opinions of the Islamic religion…few Malays will come to defend it..as if it belongs to them and as if …it is so pure and holy. The Koran is purer than the Bible….no doubt…but the Koran also have their flaws like any so call holy books.We just do not wish to debate on the books…as all religions are good to clean dirty souls…not control the minds.
If the Islamic faith is so good….then it is 1000 yeas too late…as it is a copy of all other religions…refined it…and call it ISLAM…not that it is no good for humankind….but just try not to be grateful and belittle the forefathers they copied from.
Please don’t make Malaysian Islamic faith followers ..a bunch of ungrateful ones…most are not…only the narrow minded and afraid to go to hell do…..and I challenge anyone tell me where is heaven and hell.
There goes am idiotic jihad commenter trying to hero worship Islamic faith with his long long story above.
Thousands upon thousands can give up such stories….especially the ‘BORN AGAIN’ Christians.
Suggest both these fanatics go somewhere else and talk cock there…not here.
“Omar M. Ahmad founder of CAIR said: “Islam isn’t in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant” he said. “The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth,” he said.”
http://www.islam-watch.org/AyeshaAhmed/sharia_in_america.htm
Haha, Jean.
wits0 said… The Dutch society and its silent majority surely has a right to regard their institution and traditions as sacred too…
—-
How could you understand the Dutch there but refused to understand the Malays here sir? All you need to do is replaced “dutch” in your comment there and you would immediately understand a bit about the sentiment of the muslim / malays in malaysia…
witso said …If you can’t give up anything (let’s say the headscarf – actually a political statement) and only demands things are done only your way…
—-
Headscarf is a political statement? That is why I said early on that little knowledge can be very dangerous. Go ask the Sikh what political statement is he trying to make by wearing the turban… let me give you you a clue: in both circumstances, it has nothing to do with politic.
i remember Reading something bout Charles Darwin…. Every living things need somekind of hardship to evolve to the next level.
I’m Glad I’m not the race either the culture that gone become extinct anytime soon, LOVE and FREEDOM is the only thing i know. Well to cut everything short, one should realise that the fanatics are slowly dying or being killed. Protectionism KILLS….
“I know of only one that proclaims that supremacist thing and that’s a real problem at its root.”-wits0
reply: that’s why i said “if everyone”.
“What do you know about the case Wren? How do you conclude its an Islamic Law? Show me the words from the Koran or the hadith that says “if you killled a man in self defense, you shall be killed.” Or is it just because it happened in the middle east it has to be an islamic law? Or is it just because the one enforcing it was a muslim it must be an islamic law? Do you know the difference between Samy Vellu and Hinduism, Badawi and Islam?”-jeancumlately
reply: it DID happen. In Saudi Arabia. A maid working there got raped by her employer. nothing was done to help her. when her employer approached to rape her again, she killed him in selfdefense and was executed. Or perphaps if you don’t believe me go work there as a maid yourself and if you happen to go through the same thing, maybe you’ll believe me. And if you read the news and various accounts by girls who don’t want to be identified, the victim is often viewed as the one who has disgraced her family, very often driven out or killed. Another case, also reported in the papers. A girl in a middle eastern country killed a guy in self defense, she was actually sentenced to death by the Islamic court cause she killed the guy, only at the last moment the court relented and she was required to pay compensation. does the word “sentenced” tell you ANYTHING?
i might be a student but at least i know THIS much.
jihad fi sabilillah, have you seen some of these stories too?
-http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/554407/posts (or this http://www.christianword.org/revival/visions.htm)
-http://www.whenistherapture.com/miracles.html
i’ve heard plenty of firsthand encounters but i doubt you will believe me so i just took the first three websites i could find and put them here. =).
The true nature of Islam, at least in Malaysia, has been revealed by the two judges baring ‘their bosoms’ (where Common Law rests and which they applied). Stop fooling yourselves there is such a thing as moderate or extremist Islam. Islam in Malaysia is Sunni Islam that in its pure form does not tolerate freedom of religion for anyone, not even Muslims. You may recall Old man Mahathir complaining that Jews ‘invented’ human rights!
Also, Malays are NOT brave enough to apply any concept of liberty to their faith or themselves. It takes guts for a community to say ‘Leave if you want. Some of us will be sad that you have fallen on the wayside’. They find it easier to say “the sky is falling down” like chicken little.
Finally, the Koran was not written by Mohamed (PBUH). But not many Malays are brave enough to acknowledge that. Of course he did not write the Hadith (that has been changed from time to time by Muslim scholars to suit themselves). True freedom of religion resides in the secular nations of the world…none of which are muslim. Sad but true.
Wren, you were not answering my questions. So, I would rephrase it to you…How do you conclude its an Islamic Law? Show me the words from the Koran or the hadith that says “if you killled a man in self defense, you shall be killed.” Or is it just because it happened in the middle east (saudi Arabia) it must be an islamic law? Or is it just because the one enforcing it was a muslim it must be an islamic law?
Any laws, islamic or not,is open to various interpretations and the “sentencing” depends on the judge and how good were the prosecutors and the lawyers.If the ruling is wrong, should we blame it on religion? Like I said, Show me the words from the Koran or the hadith that says “if you killled a man in self defense, you shall be killed.” Some men in saudi arabia said it, not islam. Get it?
Jean:
“How could you understand the Dutch there but refused to understand the Malays here sir?”
Well, Ms Jean, is Malay sentiments so above remote from human sentiments and human nature? So much so that it’s no longer measurable by the same token of humanity?
—
“Headscarf is a political statement?”
It becomes one when used in the larger context behind the scene of and in line with a megalomaniac ideology that preaches displacing all other social and political system. The Sikhs, or anyone else, have no known ideology of wishing to dominate the planet. Also whatta “modesty” scam to repress women!
I put it to you that islam has everything to do with politics. That’s why it causes friction everywhere it tries to be fundamental and muscle in – aka, purer than pure or holelier than holy. It (in the case of the more numerous Sunnis)can’t even stand their own, the Sufis, the the Ahmadis or the Shiites.
Wren:
“i might be a student but at least i know THIS much.”
Anyone of a sound mind would, wrt to natural justice unless he/she no longer exert mastery over his/her own mind but choose instead abject subjugation to an instituted ideology that removes his/her right to.
People can be brain-washed, oppressed and forced into such a pathetic state of abjectness that they’ll acquire a masochistic personality as a result. Like a woman who praises vagina mutilation as a holy duty.
Monsterball, in the order of concern, ‘BORN AGAIN’ Christians are not a problem. They also get no state sponsorship for excesses.
Please folks…Stop bashing each other. LOOK!!!…. what a fanatic is doing to all of you…talking JIHAT…and here you all are caught in talking religion.
We should all concentrate on the govt. using religion to control one race…the malays……true or not…debate with an open mind.
And we should all stay United..be it a muslim…christian…hindhu..or buddhist…to ward off fanatics…..Unfortunately most are talking Islamic supremacy….and there goes all of you quarreling amongst each other’
It seems jeancumlately wants to have the last word…so let her have it….partly she is right…and partly she wants to continue talking religion…to prove something?…what? …I don’t know….
By the way…do we all know Sheih of ‘kickdefella’ blog owner mother has just suffered a stroke and all are praying for her speedy recovery. Thought you all like to know.
PS: Liz…I think it is right thing to announce such news here. I sincerely apologize if I have gone out of line. Thanks.
I think you are mistaken, Monty, read :
http://politics101malaysia.blogsome.com/2007/06/05/p1404/#more-1404
“The Federal Court also reaffirmed that the civil court had no jurisdiction over any Islamic matters, even when non-Muslims are involved.
The verdict does not end the Muslim, non-Muslim divide, but may cause it to worsen as the tussle for primacy between inherited secular guarantees and a resurgent Islam demanding pre-eminence for Syariah laws continues, said observers. …..”
—
The matter is interlinked.
Monty, the whole debate is one about commonsense or lack of it at the root of it all, not about the wrappings. It can’t be helped if some people sees only the wrappings and cannot see the content. The content still exists nevertheless.
ok witsO…noted with thanks!
Those who claim I am nameless and faceless..here is your chance to see me again at “Amin Iskandar@Black” blog.
There are legal concerns for Lina Joy to change the religion status on her MyKad. She is now a Christian, by choice. What if she marries and have children in Malaysia.
1. What will the religion be for her husband, legally?
2. What will the religion be for her kids, legally?
3. Is Lina Joy & husband or the government to decide the religion for their kids then?
4. What about the future burial for Lina Joy (assuming in Malaysia)?
– according to her MyKad, she is an Islam. Hospital will not release her to family but will proceed to have an Islamic burial?
Is there such a thing as perfect happiness?
Witso, you wrote: The Dutch society and its silent majority surely has a right to regard their institution and traditions as sacred too…
All I was asking you to do is to write this to understand the situation here: The Malaysian society and its silent majority surely has a right to regard their institution and traditions as sacred too…
I am quite sure that Lina Joy is not the “majority here, wits0?
Then I asked you, “Headscarf is a political statement?”” and you said, “It becomes one when used in the larger context behind the scene of and in line with a megalomaniac ideology that preaches displacing all other social and political system. The Sikhs, or anyone else, have no known ideology of wishing to dominate the planet. Also whatta “modesty” scam to repress women!”
Wits0, aren’t you being a real racist and prejudicial here? All muslims want to rule the world? For god’s sake, they just want to wear a scarf!
And then you wrote: “Like a woman who praises vaginal mutilation as a holy duty.” Again, I want to ask you, are sure “vaginal mutilation” is a religious requirement, or a holy duty? Or is this another assumption based on the fact that it is practiced mostly by muslims? Please be very sure.
Monty, if you noticed, I never attack any religion at all in my comments. Do you know that I was only asking for people not to blindly attack Islam or other religions? Little knowledge can be very dangerous.
perfect happiness…there is surely perfect happiness in marriage.
However for Lina Joys …her perfect happiness are even more perfect….as it will be God not man on Earth to make her and family….all happy and well…not some laws that try to make life difficult for her.
Spoken to so many malay NGOs….agree that so call religious bodies to do interfere with natural freedom every human being is entitled to….but play their roles to make unhappy couples…be happy.
Nothing unsaid was said at last night forum:”Malaysia, After Lina Joy: A Dialogue Lina Joy”
However I am happy to note that it was one of the rare occasion where the audience was well represented by all the races.
The discerning sharp division of opinion between our Malay brothers/sisters and the non-moslem among the audience, pervaded the atmosphere at the Hotel Armada.
The Malays, quoting liberally from the Koran, maintained that Islam came as a package. There are procedures for entering and there are procedures for leaving.
The non-moslem on their part emphasized the fundemantal rights as enshrine in the constitution. For them the decision on Lina Joy is a violation of human rights.
There were a couple of Malays, like the 3 moslem speakers on the panel, maintaining a middle ground calling for healthy dialogue to solve the problem.
One Malay even went to the extend of saying that the Shariah requirement, was only applicable in the High Court and the Court of Appeal. According to her the Federal Court had jurisdiction. As such she said the Federal Court decision was wrong.
The Muslim Organizations in Defence of Islam took the opportunity at the Forum to distribute their statement on the case. It advised that the decision should not be seen as a victory for Muslims and a loss for non-Muslims in Malaysia. It maintained that the decision should instead be seen as a rejection of an attempt to deconstruct and radically revamp the current formula.
The DAP through panel speaker Lim Kit Siang renewed its call for secular state status for Malaysia. He said a secular state should not be seen as against Islam but one that transcended religion to ensure Malaysia’s future.
Another panel speaker Lim Guan Eng described Lina Joy’s decision as one that had denied the individual a right guaranteed under the Constitution such as a right to freedom of conscience and choice of religion.
Ambiga Sreenevasan, Malaysia Bar Council President expressed her pessimism the protection of these fundamental rights following Lina Joy’s decision, however, on legal grounds.
The question of whether the decision was political, religious or legal in substance, was not directly tackled. Muslim alluded it as religious while the non-muslim implied it was political.
Ms Ambiga, on her part, maintained that it was a legal issue hijacked by the politicians. In other words politicians meddling in a legal issue, and politicians meddling in religious issue and thus causing problems to Malaysians. However in the Malaysian context, it is obvious that such meddling is a manifestation of Malay phobia of the erosion of their political dominance in the country. They not only fear losing their numbers out of Islam but also fear of onslaught of other Muslim denominations such as Shitism and other “deviationist” sects.
“Healthy dialogue” as advocated by Tan Sri Khalid Ibrahim, PKR Secretary-General, should address this issue otherwise we can talk until the cows come home…
EW: Dear Simon, Thanks for the synopsis 🙂
Jean also can talk till the cows come home, LOL! I’ll let her have her last word.
For once I enjoy simon wee’s message…but the bottom line is we must not let politics creep into our religious life.
DAP Inter Faith Forum on Lina Joy
Zainol Abideen (mahaguru58.blogspot.com)
Sat | Jun 09, 07 | 03:53:31 AM
I went to the DAP organized Forum titled ‘Malaysia after Lina Joy’ at Hotel Armada, Petaling Jaya with MENJ.
[Sila layari http://www.harakahdaily.net/muktamar/ untuk laporan semasa muktamar]
MENJ had dinner with me and my missus at Taman Tenaga before adjoining to my place for maghrib prayers and then we left for the forum in MENJ’s car.
On our way to the hotel, we took a wrong turn and had to waste a good hour or so and we sort of had an impromptu tour of the Jalan Gasing areas.
For all the hype about the so called religious intolerance in Malaysia and the usual bla bla bla as being plastered over the news in the ‘concerned Christian West’, we passed by a whole lot of imposing churches every few minutes on our short tour of the area.
Will go take some snaps of the various churches there in the daytime to show the world how very intolerant Malaysia is when it concerns all the other faiths here. As they say, sometimes just talking about things doesn’t really get results as much as a visual proof does.
Well, eventually we reached the hotel but were unable to find a parking spot as the whole place including the road curbs were just jammed full of cars.
Go we again on our merry go round looking for space to park our chariot. At last we succeeded getting a space within walking distance to the hotel and we finally arrived at the place.
The forum was being held at Level 3 in one of the ballroom hall. The place was jampacked with people and the Non Muslims were in the majority. There were a scattered few Muslims lounging around outside of the hall for the hall inside was full up.
Seems that we had missed a few of the earlier speakers and when we arrived, the ABIM President Brother Yusri Muhammad was explaining about what Islam has to say about the matter of apostasy, etc.
I took a few shots of the forum and chose to sit near a loudspeaker and managed to record the speeches with my tape recorder.
Every now and then , the people outside would be speaking amongst themselves and there would come out this elderly Chinese guy wearing a red striped t shirt shoo shooing them to keep it down. He was becoming quite a bore and many of the folks outside tried their level best to keep being patient at his trying to be the ‘class monitor’. Pathetic fellow, really. His kids must loathe him. Hehehehe.
Anyway, as usual, the speakers took their turns to voice out their thoughts and feelings over the verdict against the apostate by the Federal Court and as usual, the panelists present would raise some points and just make their stand about the matter.
Really hard for me to relay it back to you word for word now but once I have the time, I’d listen to the tape and try to salvage some main points for all to share.
Overall, the forum went well without a hitch. Come question time, some of the forum participants took turns to speak and ask questions or shared their viewpoints about the situation regarding the way they feel things are being handled in this nation especially sensitive matters such as religion and this case of apostasy being referred to the Syariah courts.
If we allowed every Ahmad, Ah Seng, Richard or Samy to just rant on and on, they’d take up the whole bloody night and still not finish yak yakkety yak away! Hence Tony Pua, Mister Moderator would signal the person to cut it short or go straight to the point.
As usual, some folks love the limelight and would rattle away as they please , prompting Tony to ask the person to conclude their speech.
One representative of ‘the interfaith group’ rattled on about why people cannot do mix marriages here whereas in neighboring countries such as Indonesia , it’s no problem?
Sometimes, you just want to laugh out loud at the preposterous ideas such folks come up with and you wonder just what the heck kind of a family is that person vouching for?
A rojak family! Father Muslim, mother Christian, Son Hindu, Daughter Buddhist or freethinker!
Such is the kind of tolerance that fellows like that vouch for. Gobbledegook’s if you ask me.
Just because it is an interfaith forum on Lina Joy’s case, doesn’t mean that folks like that elderly Indian should try to champion his screwed up family ideas.
A few passionate ones stole the show with their raised voices and quoting from the Qur’an or news cuttings and dear ol’ Tony would interject and ask the person to please speed it up. 😛
MENJ had his turn at the mike and lambasted Lina Joy for ‘potong queue’! Hey MENJ! Curi line MG58 ye? Hehehehehe.
Can’t remember what else he said but it’s all in the tape and I’ll update it later here.
Blogger shenyeeaun impressed the crowd with his quoting the Piagam Madinah and also even uttered the Shahadah as an example of how religiously tolerant we should all be and understand each other better and he said it all in fluent Malay!
I was the last person allowed to address the forum and I first and foremost congratulated the DAP for successfully organizing the first ever interfaith dialogue between us Malaysians.
I touched on the matter of Lina Joy not following the proper procedures in going about her case and expressed my stand that she is to be blamed for it. She should have gone to the Syariah courts in the first place instead of trying to do a fast one by going to the civil courts.
I then told the forum that Islam is not a club membership, to sign up and then leave as one pleases. You don’t acknowledge God almighty and then turn your back on Him.
Those who want to talk about Islamic matters should first learn the truth about the faith and not just speak as they like without knowing what the heck it is that they are saying?
I then spoke about seeing so many churches over there in Petaling Jaya and asked Uncle Kit about how wrong it is for the people to say that there’s no religious tolerance here in Malaysia.
I reminded him about the Jalan Kapitan Keling in Penang where there is a Chinese temple on it’s one end, then the Masjid Kapitan Keling, Sri Maha Mariamman Hindu temple, Goddess of Mercy Kuan Yin Temple and a Roman Catholic Church right at it’s other end. What religious intolerance are these people talking about?
I ended my speech by asking the DAP to select a larger venue to hold such forums again in the future.
Had many Muslims come shake my hand and get my name cards after that salvo! Just speaking my mind! Glad to have met such dedicated fellow Malaysians!
A few Christians came asking m for my card too and one particular Christian came and shared his dissatisfactions about how the local authorities aren’t allowing his church to even do renovations in their own church, etcetera. I shared with him some ideas as to how to go get things done.
Media exposure always helps. A complaint to TV3 might help. We always see overnight results when anything as sensitive as that local authorities trying to show power gets flashed across national tv. Usually within 24 hours. That’s the awesome power of the media.
After the forum concluded, we bloggers started to say hi and exchange namecards, take photos , etcetera.
Had an impromptu session with Uncle Kit and the others, where I asked Kit Siang to be cool and steady in Parliament and not lose control when debating with the likes of Samy Vellu, etcetera.
Met Teresa Kok, Politikus, Nathaniel Tan, _earthinc whom I didn’t give a hug this time around for the fellow complained last time that Mahaguru58 was a tad too friendly, hehehehe. Also had Nik Elina come say hi to me.
I introduced MENJ to ABIM President Yusri Muhammad and took these pictures here for all to see.
Bloggers Shin, Carbon Copy and Shaarizal Shaarani was there too. Spoke with Ronnie Tan and also Lim Guan Eng.
Overall, it was a good start and everyone went home happy that they came. Thats’ it!
Wait for the next one and maybe someone might post a video of this dialogue soon.
(Untuk yang terkini dalam blog-blog sosial dan politik Malaysia, sila lawati Malaysiakita – sila klik Malaysiakita)
Cadangan istilah “murtad” dalam MyKad
Ketua Perusuh
Wed | Jun 06, 07 | 03:13:06 PM
Maaf kata, saya sebenarnya bukanlah mendapat pendidikan secara formal dalam bidang agama Islam. Malah saya sendiri pun bersekolah di sekolah mubaligh Kristian.
[Sila layari http://www.harakahdaily.net/muktamar/ untuk laporan semasa muktamar]
Namun walaupun begitu, pandangan tentang Islam itu jelas pada saya. Begitu juga pandangan tentang agama Kristian juga jelas pada saya.
Oleh itu saya tidaklah juga mahu berdebat atas isu Lina Joy ini, namun saya terpanggil untuk membicarakan berkenaan konsep pematuhan kita sebagai rakyat Malaysia yang bertamadun dan berpendidikan kepada perundangan Malaysia.
Apakah sebenarnya yang berbangkit atas isu Lina Joy ini? Adakah ianya berkaitan dengan isu akidah atau isu berkaitan dengan dokumentasi?
Semua ini kita kena tanya Lina Joy. Dia perlu menegaskan dari bahagian manakah isu ini sepatutnya digembar-gemburkan. Walaupun saya seorang yang beragama Islam, namun saya masih lagi menghormati agama-agama yang lain.
Berbalik kepada isu Lina Joy,
1. Jika ianya disebabkan masalah dokumentasi (MyKAD) maka sewajarnya Lina Joy mengesahkan dahulu yang dia telah keluar dari agama Islam dengan mengfailkan kes di mana-mana Mahkamah Syariah. Ini kerana jika dia telah disahkan oleh mana-mana Mahkamah Syariah sebagai telah keluar dari Islam, maka barulah perkataan Islam boleh dikeluarkan daripada MyKAD.
2. Jika Lina Joy tidak ingin mengesahkan dirinya keluar dari Islam di mana-mana Mahkamah Syariah, maka bagaimana pula satu warta akan dikeluarkan yang mengesahkannya telah keluar meninggalkan agama Islam.
3. Adakah isu Lina Joy ini sebenarnya digunakan oleh pihak-pihak tertentu sebagai satu medium untuk mencabar undang-undang negara? Jika inilah sebenarnya yang dikehendaki oleh Lina Joy, maka sewajarnya dia tidak perlu membangkitkan isu ini sejak dari awal lagi dan pihak Mahkamah tidak perlu membuang wang rakyat untuk membicarakan kes yang tidak berfaedah ini.
Oleh yang demikian, saya dengan ini mencadangkan bahawa perkataan “Murtad” digantikan kepada perkataan Islam dalam MyKAD bagi mana-mana pihak yang ingin keluar dari Islam. Kita mudahkan mereka menukar perkataan Islam ini dengan perkataan “Murtad”. Ini akan memudahkan apa-apa sahaja urusan yang berkaitan dengan agama dan juga untuk memudahkan Lina Joy dan sesiapa sahaja daripada ditangkap makan disiang hari pada bulan Ramadhan.
Dengan adanya perkataan “Murtad” menggantikan perkataan “Islam” dalam MyKAD, secara tidak langsung ianya akan membolehkan pengenalpastian status agama bagi pembawa MyKAD yang telah murtad. Malah ianya juga membolehkan kita mempunyai satu senarai data berapa ramaikah orang Islam yang telah murtad.
Pihak Jabatan Pendaftaran Negara (JPN) sewajarnya meletakkan perkataan “Murtad” bagi menggantikan perkataan “Islam” bagi mana-mana pemegang MyKAD yang telah murtad dan tidak menggantikannya dengan perkataan “Kristian”, “Hindu”, “Buddha” atau sebagainya melainkan hanya perkataan “Murtad” untuk memudahkan pengklasifikasian.
Itupun jika isu sebenar kes Lina Joy ini hanyalah isu berkaitan masalah dokumentasi. Namun jika ianya isu lain (politik dan sebagainya), anda tafsirkanlah sendiri. – http://ketuaperusuh.wordpress.com/
Dear Ms Wong, you are welcome. From now on I will extend a post on the forum I attend. Pls alert me on the ones that I don’t know. My email simonscwee@yahoo.com. rgds SimonI
A ‘Note of Protest’ on the Infringements of Religious Freedom
FIRST AND FOREMOST, this article was written by me and another journalist but unfortunately our OC has disagreed to get it published. Earlier on we already knew this story was politically sensitive and would not be published whatsoever, therefore I hav…
In reply to jeancumlately No74,,June 2 and No102, June4
The Fonz says…..Though born of Muslim parentage, I am only a believer in a supreme being with no affliation to any particular religion especially yours. My ex-wife is a Muslim too. I love my parents and my ex very much and we are still best of friends but I never did and will never love their religion. In fact I don’t despise the Muslims but their mentality and the very religion itself. My parents and my ex are well aware of my opinion and respects it and we agree to disagree.
I have the freedom to choose or say anything coz I am not living in some f…king middle eastern country or Malaysia.
Now, though not very much in love with your mentality and religion, nevertheless I will not resort to any civil war as I respect all forms of life. By the way, did I bring out the devil in you? Because it was no surprise to me from you or your kind.
I am no expert in Islam or any other and had never claimed so. But I have a God given grace to see what your kind is doing to others and to the world.
What separates the two of us is that I will speak my mind whenever. As for you and your kind, you harbour the same feelings as me but only worse towards others and the non-Muslim only that you disguise it. I call this hypocrisy.
The truth always hurt. So shut the f…k up.
Lastly, I am very sure Lina Joy does not give 2 f…ks about what you or your kind think or say. So I say to you and all your kind to go get F…K.
the truth always hurt…… but,
and you shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free! – John 8:32